This Model Code May Limit Flex Duct

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1. I have to disagree with this.
   I have to disagree with this. It’s a sad day when an organization seeks to limit the use of a single product (with many potential advantages) instead of addressing the fact that the industry they are managing is overrun with bad contractors and installers who are either careless or poorly trained. Not to mention inspectors unwilling to do their part. Should they next limit rigid duct as well because it is to prone to leakage (often a far more damaging problem), the same contractors who can’t run flex, can’t seal ducts either. Shall we also limit the use of gas furnaces, they are far to prone to oversizing. I could go on, but hopefully I’ve made my point. Although the firefighter safety deserves to be addressed, I don’t think this is the way to go about improving the HVAC industry.

   In light of this please tell me they’re not still allowing the use of framing cavities for return air.

   1. This proposal will require
      This proposal will require actual HVAC design so there’s less of a justification to oversize the mechanicals. Also building codes today are more stringent as it pertains to exterior air leakage so leaky duct work will become less of an issue. Besides how much hard pipe are we talking about here? Maybe 25 ft in total for a typical home?

      Tract builders will of course fight this and some states will probably never adopt it.

   2. Andy, I think you are after
      Andy, I think you are after the code change proposed probably by an inspector or city (don’t know for sure) that address’s an observed problem. Basically this should be resolved by the manufacturers and the contractors but you are pointing out that the only regulation is inspectors. Inspectors do not know everything and are probably not current in installation standards on many product so the problems appear when one inspector tries to enforce proper installation. This is a construction industry wide problem since very few material manufacturers provide a training manual for their product and depend on the government to insure proper application methods. All construction related people need to up their game.

      1. John-
         John-
         I don’t mean to be throwing inspectors under the bus but they are the only required third party check we have. I’m saying the code should be looking at requiring better design and commissioning instead of trying to micro manage everything in between. If contractors are held to a performance standard the flex duct issues will start to sort themselves out. I’ve seen this happen with Energy Star version 3.

2. A hard duct system designed
   A hard duct system designed for a specific residence is definitively the most energy efficient solution.

   However, insulated flex duct is very beneficial in many ways if properly installed especially when applying to existing conditions. Minimizing usage to comply with commercial standards resolves some problems but adds cost to the project.

   One recommendation to minimize flex duct kinking (air restrictions) is to require duct saddles based on duct size.

3. Din,ding, ding…mini splits
   Din,ding, ding…mini splits end all this bureaucratic suffocation. bty…I bet the steel industry love the proposal.

   1. With modern design trends,
      With modern design trends, The “window unit built into a wall” look probably won’t fly with too many people.

4. I felt the need to clarify my
   I felt the need to clarify my comment above with something less sarcastic. I feel this would set a precedent. That the code, instead of setting minimum design criteria or requiring commissioning to show a system is working properly, would attempt to limit available options until we’re left with only that which contractors and inspectors (hopefully) can’t screw up. Is this really what we want?

5. Makes great sense – flexible
   Makes great sense – flexible ducts are “absolutely” not installed right. Kinked where they are tied to framing, stuffed into hard to get places, etc,etc

6. I would much rather see a
   I would much rather see a performance standard based on leakage, total static and air balance.

   I tell contractors if their duct system meets my performance specs, I don’t care how ugly it is. In reality, a poorly installed system won’t make the grade.

   This approach not only forces bad actors to clean up their act, but solves a myriad of design deficiencies. When it comes to regulating proper duct design, those Manual D submittals aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.

   1. I was hoping someone would
      I was hoping someone would comment on performance. We should concentrate on the measured result, not how we got there.
      I have seen well designed, high performing systems that rely on flex ducts. The bottom line is measure the results and force the industry to do a better job as a whole. The ducts are not the problem it’s how they are used and poor “best practices” that are to blame.

7. As you can tell by the
   As you can tell by the pictures for this article, it doesn’t take a journeyman to see the issues. If we as an industry check our installations to prevent problems, then someone will attempt to address it by code changes. Installation instructions are included in each box of flex duct, but not read. As mentioned, if installed properly, pulled tight, supported correctly, proper radius, sized properly using correct friction rate and limited restrictions, flex duct is an approved material without noticeable differences. 5′ limitation is extreme though.

8. I would much rather use more
   I would much rather use more measurement and verification than see more restrictive codes. That goes for all home performance. Its the wild west in many regions.

   1. As a municipal inspector,
      As a municipal inspector, many of these comments are slightly offensive and it makes me wonder what the heck goes on during inspections east of the Rockies. As for the “wild west” comment, out here in the west, I believe we have the most elaborate system of mechanical performance testing in the world that is almost always required to be completed for all MEP installations. Those third-party tests are in addition to the mandatory requirements that the local AHJ is responsible for. Not a huge fan, but if flexible duct is installed properly, strapped properly at a 4′ max. and sealed correctly, the stuff has an important role in limited area installations. No inspector is perfect. No inspector has never made an error, but out here in the west most of us are competent, thorough, diligent and fair when it comes to interpreting and enforcing the code. I’m gonna crawl out from under the bus now, brush myself off and go about my day of inspection…usually a long one at that! K

9. Just because some do not
   Just because some do not install a product correctly is not a reason to deny others the ability to use it. Test at the National Labs in TN several years ago proved that a properly installed straight run of flex duct had within 2% of the airflow of hard duct. However, I agree that it should only be used straight where it can be pulled tight, turns should be hard fittings.

10. …and Chris VanRite will be
    …and Chris VanRite will be discussing flex duct in Las Vegas at one of the free ASHRAE seminars being held at the AHR event. Allison will be taking on the hard duct challenges and yours truly covering the original unducted system hydronics [;@) Three presentations in one hour – it’s a Ted Talk for techies…

    https://ashraem.confex.com/ashraem/w17/webprogram/Session20873.html

11. The performance metrics for
    The performance metrics for distribution systems should include more than just air flow and leakage rate, it should include delivered BTUs, and noise criteria. While it is possible for installers to insulate all metal duct systems well, it is a rare occurrence, which measuring delivered energy confirms. Even in systems that are well insulated we air systems with 90F degree air, and more commonly 140F air, which leads to substantially different heat loss through the same insulation. As building get more architecturally complex, we need more tools, not less in our tool bags to achieve high performance outcomes. I vote that if we are concerned about outcomes that we check those, and let every one get there how ever they want. (Add what ever out comes you want to the list: saftey, IAQ, comfort)

12. We live in South Carolina and
    We live in South Carolina and are plagued by poorly installed HVAC systems including bad flex duct installs. Multiple mini splits cost too much to be viable in all situations. I approached a builder to install the air handler in a mechanical room stolen from a walk in closet, utilize plenum trusses so that the ductwork would be inside the envelope and to use insulated hard ductwork. They would not entertain the thought because it was “different”. I was willing to pay extra and told him that this type of change could save 20% on energy costs. Still not interested, even as a “green” construction company.

13. Municipal inspectors have no
    Municipal inspectors have no business inspecting period. To much corruption. Most 3rd party inspectors are legit and do their job. The biggest problems are poor installation, lack of proper training and contractors being beat up by the builder. Commercial is much better as cfm checks per room, based on manual d’s are required typically to get paid. Most Residential is how fast and how cheap and what can we get by with verses doing it better. I prefer hard duct but there are situations where flex makes sense. Most use trunk and flex because it much faster on job site. The other issue is time from installation vs system startup. Insulation contractors are about the same and fast and cheap vs quality installation. They don’t typically care about smashing, cutting or holes in your insulation. Energy Star version 3 and above has helped. Truely in the end it’s really up to the contractor and builder to make sure it’s load calculated and installed correctly. Both during installation, duct blast testing before insulation and Sheetrock. Then duct blasting at unit startup to test again for leakage and cfm distribution for each room. Once that in mandentory things won’t change much. In the end best practice, common sense and testing to verify make most sense. One has to overcome the price per ton method and budget restraints first to design and install a good system first.

14. thank you all for the info
    thank you all for the info regarding flex duct, I’m GC building remodeling a house with a new addition in W. Seattle. Old house, limited joist space in old and weird workaround parameters to get all things remodel to fit – typical of a remodel. Im using a trunk and branch design in the old house and a “redial” design off the end of the extended plenum entering the addition. Thats a 16 x 20 x 60″ box with 5 supply’s off it(2 8″ and 3 6″) I like the idea of using hard 90’s in the flex duct for better, less restricted flow and following the install tips for flex is quite helpful.
    Its hard to justify the additional cost for rigid duct in the addition over flex so I went with flex.

    Following the idea of not installing supply’s in small rooms (ie: closets, laundry) Im wondering if a wall transfer grill or a ceiling jumper duct from a master bedroom to a master closet is a good solution to another supply.

    Thanks for all the info, appreciate the help!

    Evan

15. Flex duct is really an
    Flex duct is really an abomination. In addition to the installation and airflow problems mention in the article, flex degrades over time, can be torn by rodents and by poor installation, catches and hold dust (static prone plastic & in the folds) and is next to impossible to properly clean. But..it is really, really cheap to install.

    1. Thank you Bill for saying it.
       Thank you Bill for saying it.

16. Flex duct is a disaster.
    Flex duct is a disaster. What most people don’t realize is that flex duct cannot be cleaned – EVER! Mold is becoming THE most dangerous consequence of the sustainability movement. Once mold spores get into the duct system, the spores are spread around the home or building until addressed. Mold grows on the insides of duct work quite commonly. The food source is dust, condensation is often the source of moisture. Even well maintained systems will require the ducts to be cleaned a regular basis (every 8-10 years)to maintain healthy air quality. Flex ducts can only be replaced. Air quality is critical for occupant health. Since flex ducts cannot be cleaned it is ridiculous to allow them to be installed anywhere replacement will be difficult or impossible.

    I am finding the use of HVAC systems during drywall work to be an increasingly common problem also. This results in ducts full of toxic silica for eventual occupants to breathe on a daily basis. When home and building owners start to realize the potential liability and danger, there will be even more incentive to change. In any case, this change to limiting flex duct cannot come soon enough!

17. As a design professional, I
    As a design professional, I agree that it’s not particularly our problem if a contractor chooses to install flex instead of rigid duct. Our answer to the substitution is that we design to rigid duct, and the performance needs to be equivalent. We’re finding in California that the 5′ limitation is being enforced already at the planning department as well as in the field.
    The irony is that California’s health care building compliance department (OSHPD) has had a flex length limitation amendment in the UMC/CMC for many years…but theirs is 10 feet.

18. We do hundreds of homes and
    We do hundreds of homes and condos in Fla,yearly, we use flex or a combination hard/flex in 99″of them. servicing the units regularly, and use of micro biocides prevents the growth of mold in the UNIT where moisture is which mold needs to grow.
    I have never seen mold “growing in flex, if it is old dirty from lack of filters and smoking it is CHEAPER to tear out and replace than “clean” it.
    there is NO need for hard 90’s ect ect ect, only craftsmanship by the installer.
    “”inspectors” are not that, they they are CODE ENFORCEMENT officers. Their opinion doesn’t matter only the system is installed by the code….as in anything else do due diligence before hiring some body and pay for a good installation not some cheapo off craigs list.

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